tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10787701.post111675210604207319..comments2023-10-02T07:50:17.119-07:00Comments on The Sword: Was Detering Right about the Date of Mark?Michael Turtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10787701.post-1146235061461935732006-04-28T07:37:00.000-07:002006-04-28T07:37:00.000-07:00Jerome, Commentary on the BibleOn Matthew 24.15 [S...Jerome, Commentary on the Bible<BR/>On Matthew 24.15 [So when you see the standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation.]: or to the statue of the mounted Hadrian, which stands to this very day on the site of the Holy of Holies.<BR/><BR/>Jake JonesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10787701.post-1117522116230351282005-05-30T23:48:00.000-07:002005-05-30T23:48:00.000-07:00Rod caught me in an error here in the followup:ROD...Rod caught me in an error here in the followup:<BR/><BR/>ROD G: Young’s Literal reads “in my name, because ye are Christ’s,”<BR/><BR/>MICHAEL: Yes, that accords with the very literal translation in Donahue and Harrington and Gundry as well. The RSV is wrong. My bad.<BR/><BR/>ROD G: Mark 9:41 thus includes a literary connector that was not originally a part of the proverb.<BR/><BR/>MICHAEL T: Yes,Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10787701.post-1117493424248404562005-05-30T15:50:00.000-07:002005-05-30T15:50:00.000-07:00I should add that this signal of Mark's can be rea...I should add that this signal of Mark's can be read two ways: either Mark is writing during the war, about the Temple of Jupiter Capitolinus on the Temple Mount, or the reference to "Capit" is a reference to Jerusalem itself, known as Aelia Capitolinus after the war. Mark is writing either during the war, or in its immediate aftermath.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10787701.post-1117469026810609872005-05-30T09:03:00.000-07:002005-05-30T09:03:00.000-07:00More for Rod:ROD G : What you are suggesting (I th...More for Rod:<BR/><BR/><BR/>ROD G : What you are suggesting (I think) is that Mark midrashed his own document and projected it into the future! There is no similar other example within Mark and I know of no other in all of Jewish literature. <BR/><BR/>MICHAEL T: No, Rod, I am suggesting that Mark modeled himself after Daniel, who did exactly the same thing. Mark is writing from the middle of Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10787701.post-1117468618700036422005-05-30T08:56:00.000-07:002005-05-30T08:56:00.000-07:00Not only is there a Temple on the Temple mount nam...Not only is there a Temple on the Temple mount named Capitolinus, but the city of Jerusalem is now known as _Aelia_ Capitolinus, deriving its first name from Hadrian's own, and from Jupiter _Capitolinus_. Is The Place of the Skull is a double reference to Jerusalem? But then my proposed date of Mark during the campaign is wrong.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10787701.post-1117116353026623142005-05-26T07:05:00.000-07:002005-05-26T07:05:00.000-07:00Storing all this stuff here.JAKE: For what it is w...Storing all this stuff here.<BR/><BR/><BR/>JAKE: For what it is worth, Jerome identifies the Abomination of Desolation as the statue of Hadrian. Jerome, Extracts from the Commentary on the Bible On Matthew 24.15 [So when you see the standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation.]: or to the statue of the mounted Hadrian, which stands to this very day on the site of the Holy Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10787701.post-1117031892543860842005-05-25T07:38:00.000-07:002005-05-25T07:38:00.000-07:00Forgot to add--surely the notion that the rebuildi...Forgot to add--surely the notion that the rebuilding of the temple was unthinkable until Hadrian is wrong--I mean, I can just see the Judeans smaking their heads "Of course! Why didn't we think of that?" Also, Hadrian seems to have changed his mind, eh? Probably it was a popular idea throught the period between the two revolts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10787701.post-1117031542475847862005-05-25T07:32:00.000-07:002005-05-25T07:32:00.000-07:00I think focusing on the standards as the abominati...I think focusing on the standards as the abomination is wrong--the abomination was probably the Tenth Legion itself (with the unclean Boar as their insignia).<BR/><BR/>Also this surely can't be cast solely as a debate between a 70's Mark and a 130's Mark.<BR/><BR/>Having said that, there is of course nothing against a revitalization of Mark during the Bar Kochba revolt. The middle section, Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10787701.post-1116991102167561972005-05-24T20:18:00.000-07:002005-05-24T20:18:00.000-07:00Rod Green Responds to Jake:Jake,You're misundertsa...Rod Green Responds to Jake:<BR/><BR/>Jake,<BR/>You're misundertsanding me (or I am not being clear). Jesus was NOT <BR/>historical. Yet that point is irrelevent to the duscussion of the text <BR/>itself. The author Mark has his non-historical Jesus (in the context of <BR/>this pericope) talking about a real temple standing before him. This <BR/>pericope is placed in the time of Pilate. Thus the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10787701.post-1116985855920938602005-05-24T18:50:00.000-07:002005-05-24T18:50:00.000-07:00Our discussion has grown three cornered. Here are ...Our discussion has grown three cornered. Here are neil Godfrey's comments and my replies at Infidels:<BR/><BR/>[QUOTE=neilgodfrey]Does Detering date the whole of Mark after 135 or just this 'little apocalypse' chapter? I thought he suggested that Mark 13 is a redaction of Matthew's chap 24 counterpart. (But I only sort of read his article some time back through a machine translation.)[/quote]<BR/Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10787701.post-1116946541086774602005-05-24T07:55:00.000-07:002005-05-24T07:55:00.000-07:00More comments from Jake:Simon bar Kochba (Son of t...More comments from Jake:<BR/><BR/>Simon bar Kochba (Son of the Star) was a messianic<BR/>claimant who was expected to rebuild the Jewish<BR/>temple. Coins from that period show the Temple with<BR/>the Messianic star on the roof. Bar Kochba considerd<BR/>himself the moshiach, the Christ, and was so<BR/>proclaimed by Rabbi Akiba. <BR/><BR/>Since Christians already had their own claimant, Bar<BR/>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10787701.post-1116901031605028742005-05-23T19:17:00.000-07:002005-05-23T19:17:00.000-07:00Rod Green and I continue our conversation:ROD G: M...Rod Green and I continue our conversation:<BR/><BR/><BR/>ROD G: Mark does not reflect any expectation that the Temple will be rebuilt by men. It was to be a messianic miracle, as so stated. When Mark wrote, possibly as early as 70 CE, he would not even have known what the Romans planned to do after their conquest. <BR/><BR/>MICHAEL T: (we got lots of Michael-s going here!) Yes, but when Hadrian Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10787701.post-1116858844904395672005-05-23T07:34:00.000-07:002005-05-23T07:34:00.000-07:00Jake Jones added:How does this relate to the datin...Jake Jones added:<BR/><BR/>How does this relate to the dating of Mark? The prophecy of the destruction of the temple (Mark<BR/>13:2)is after the fact, and could only have been written after 70 CE. This is the terminus post quem for the Little Apocalypse (Mark 13).<BR/><BR/>Mark 14:58 indicates an expectation that the temple would be rebuilt. This became possible only after 118<BR/>CE when HadrianMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10787701.post-1116842101183850792005-05-23T02:55:00.000-07:002005-05-23T02:55:00.000-07:00Rod GReen at JesusMysteries noted:Michael,The "abo...Rod GReen at JesusMysteries noted:<BR/><BR/>Michael,<BR/>The "abomination of desolation" quote is found in 1 Macabbees as well as Daniel. In each case, it appears to be directly related to the acts of a political entity, not an individual. Also, it seems doubtful that <BR/>Mark's intentions relate to Jesus's cross on the Temple Mount, since it is also coupled with the "flee to the mountains" Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.com